Lucinda Green’s Remarks
I just read an article in the Chronicle which included a remark by British 3-day Olympian, Lucinda Green, regarding the cross-country jumping phase. She said, “The deep spot is from where those horrific rotational falls have taken so many people’s lives. I’m sure people are even more frightened of that deep spot than in my day. All these remarks go ’round which creates an atmosphere where you’re expected to see a spot. But why? That’s the horse’s job. It’s his legs.”
Sorry, Lucinda, but that’s CRAP!
First of all, if your horses were all so careful as to really be watching out for their legs, why do you lather them up with so much vaseline? I dare say that the majority of horses as careful as you say would never even consider jumping the first fence on cross-country with riders with no eye for a distance. They would be way to clever or simply afraid of being put in positions dangerous to themselves, no less their riders.
So here’s what I say. You want to risk your lives? That’s your choice. But you want to take a poor, dumb animal along for the ride? Then learn to see a distance or join me in the dressage arena where the worst we generally get is embarrassed!
Karin Offield — January 28, 2009 @ 4:18 am
Thank you for that comment Robert ! I was a jump rider before and after I moved to the dressage arena, the disappointment and sadness I felt when I rode my horse into trouble never surfaced again once I picked up my reins in dressage !!! xoko
Mike Tucci — February 5, 2009 @ 7:50 pm
Robert,
You are so on the mark here!! I’m glad someone has really come out an said this. Anatomically, animals with short backs and long necks were not designed to jump vertically. Animals with short necks and long backs, like deer, were designed to jump amazingly well. The natural confirmation of a horse is designed for a horse to run swiftly over relatively short distances to elude it’s pursuer, and was never designed to jump obstacles more than approx 18″. Now, we have grown horses larger and larger and stronger and stronger so maybe this natural ability would double, although a horse’s natural size has not doubled, so I’m being generous here.
All that being said…horses would probably be far better off jumping larger obstacles without a 100-200lbs weight upon their backs!! Let alone one who is blind, unbalanced or overzealous. The horse is putting his/her trust in the rider to do the right thing and get him/her through. If we can’t properly set the horse up to make the best advantage of his abilities, then we are recklessly endangering not only ourselves, but the beautiful, magical and majestic creature that we all know and love…and that is dispicable!
judy kingsford — February 9, 2009 @ 6:33 pm
Robert
I couldn’t agree more!
Judy
Erika G. — February 14, 2009 @ 10:47 pm
Robert, I couldn’t agree more and thank you for calling this woman out! I went to Rolex last year (as a spectator) and I can say that that will be my last time there. Horses dying, riders being air-lifted out….how many “red flags” do they need? And what sickens me the most is the blame that is put on these poor animals, when rider error is really the one at fault. Half of these people have no business being out on the course……ok, I’m finished venting!
Jo — February 15, 2009 @ 9:09 am
Good point Robert but I think you’re off course on this one. I agree with Lucinda. It IS the horses job to jump the fence, the rider is the passenger. And the Vaseline on the horses legs are to give a bit of a slide on the huge solid fences!! It was nothing to do with assisting a rider to find a “spot”. Its basis physics, remember the bascule. I think Lucinda hit the nail on the head with this one, and she’s not the only experienced event rider to think this way. Also, I believe the short format is nothing more then a cross country show jumping competition. I also believe that the short format was nothing more than to appease a group of people calling the shots for the Olympics. Unfortunately, lives were lost due to bad judgment by a few talking heads. And yes, $$$$ signs.
Good luck with your new life and have FUN!!!!
Erika G. — February 15, 2009 @ 6:52 pm
Jo, sounds like you’ve taken a few nasty spills yourself…OH, you say “Its the horse’s job”?!! No, its our job, because if it were up to the horse, they’d happily walk AROUND the jump, not over it when given a choice. Stop putting the blame on the horses and learn to ride people!!!!
RDover2 — February 15, 2009 @ 7:26 pm
Jo, I love it! Finally, after two weeks of writing all sorts of what I thought were quite controversial blogs, you are the first person (other than my mothr
who has diagreed with my opinions. Yeah!!!
I am putting myself out on the ledge in some of these articles precisely to encouage people like yourself to share their feelings and yes, even to tell me how wrong I might be.
So I applaud you right off the bat!
But now here’s the bad news. I still think you are the one that has it totally wrong here, just as I firmly believe Lucinda did in her speech. This is not to say that I do nt have the deepest respect for everything she has accompliched in the sport, or even her opinions thereon. I believe at a gut level that Lucinda, like many great athletes, does things when riding to produce results that come so naturally to her that she probably doesn’t even know she is doing them. Great Dressage trainers sometimes do not intellectually consider all the half-halts they are riding as they produce the beautiful movements from their horses. It comes so easily to thm that they instinctively do them without having to think it all through.
But even if that be the case, when teaching students the basic principles of Dressage, it is incumbent upon them to teach their pupils how to ride each movement through the doorway of the half-halt as well as the prerequisites of forwardness, straightness, etc, which are necessary for perfect balance to take place. It would not be enough to say, “Just ride onto the diagonal and start swinging your legs around and Flicka should know that means one tempis.
Likewise, I completely disagree that it’s the horses job while running cross-country to assume all the responsibility for jumping over the fences. .
Let’s look at this logically for a moment. The same riders on the very same horses ride the show jumping phase of the 3-day using the exact same principles which are used by all Show Jumping riders. They don’t gallop around not considering their distances, though many times it looks as if that were sadly the case. As someone who has worked with our team 3-day riders, I know for a fact that they generally go to top jumping trainers like George Morris, Laura Kraut and Beezie Madden, all of whom work with them to perfect their techniques and yes, to teach them better how to jump clear rounds. What logic would suppose that a horse should follow one set of rules for jumping a show jumpin fence and another totally different one for going cross-country.
I feel that you are giving horses way to much credit in the “brains” category. Don’t get me wrong, I’m the first to say they are highly trainable, but if they were so smart they would look at all of us before leaving the barn and say, ” Are you nuts? Why should I go over that thing whe it is much easier and less dangerous to go around! Especially since you seem to keep wanting to run me at it with complete disregard for how fast I’m going and the length and number of strides I need from a certain distance in order to take off from a safe spot to clear it. What the F#*K?!”
Hers’s the thing. Our wonderful, beautiful horses are, with very few exceptions, just not that smart. And when they start going really fast and their adrenaline kicks in, they will do what we’ve seen great race horses also do- keep going even though reason would say they should pull up. The rotational falls cannot be blamed the fault of the horses, even if they pulled past the distance their riders were trying to get to. No matter what, the horses are out there, just like mine are evey day, most of the time doing the best they can to follow their jockey’s instructions. And I will never believe that saying it’s up to them to figure out how to save their own as well as their riders’ hides is fare or logically sound. On the other hand, saying a rider holds the horse’s life as well as their own in his or her hands all the time when they are under saddle seems the most responsible approach we can and should assume.
RD
Jo — February 15, 2009 @ 8:05 pm
Thanks Robert I’m glad you are up for discussion instead of assumptions. I so enjoy hearing everybody’s opinions and ideas.
I am in NO way, blaming anyone, let alone the horse! Yes it is the riders job to keep the situation safe, know your horse, know his strides, know YOUR LIMITATIONS and know the distances so you can put all of it together. I can remember a conversation years ago between two persons who put this statement to the test, “You should be able to take a good hunt horse and go eventing on the weekend.” The other person said, “OK, pick one” as they looked at the kitchen window into a horse pasture. Now this was back in the 70’s. Eventing was safer, there were less injury to horse and rider. And some of the jumps were just CRAZY! It all boils down to, for me, and this is only my opinion, that if you know your horse, know his requirements, understand basic physics, it demystifies “the spot” and “YOUR distance”.
Hey, its just an opinion from an old lady who evented years ago. And yes, I’ve had my share of falls, mostly off of young knuckleheads off the track, not eventing. But I’ve also watched a lot changes in eventing, and not necessary for the better. Oh, that horse they picked out? Bally Cor was her name.
fatpony — February 17, 2009 @ 4:06 pm
Robert - How do you know? Would be my question.
deanna — February 17, 2009 @ 4:43 pm
The deep spot is from where those horrific rotational falls have taken so many people’s lives. I’m sure people are even more frightened of that deep spot than in my day. All these remarks go ’round which creates an atmosphere where you’re expected to see a spot. But why? That’s the horse’s job. It’s his legs.”
I don’t see anywhere in this statement that Lucinda is saying just to run about with your eyes closed and let the horse do it!
The sport of eventing is already in HUGE peril, let alone having a dressage guru who pretty much doesn’t ride out of the box trashing one of the worlds most leading event riders! That will help right?
Not that I don’t respect you Robert, I do! Dressage is your thing and you do it very well, eventing is Lucinda’s and can you really say she doesn’t do her job well?
I think that it is a given that Lucinda knows the value of pace, BALANCE and line. The point she is making is pretty much after that; yes, the RIDERS responsibility to have the check list done, it is the horse that makes the jump.
We have created a generation of event riders that do not understand terrian and good old galloping along with cross country riding, thinking that they can “control” that fundamental aspect by kicking, flapping, speeding then pulling and micro managing every stride thinking they can control the “spot”.
Sometimes, you just have to let go.
No rider can be perfect all the time while riding cross country, although we want to be, yes mistakes are made. The point I believe that Lucinda is making is that the horse has to be brave, scopey and honest to make up for the human error; not that we intentionally abandon the horse on the approach and leave them to their own accord.
I don’t think anyone at that level under-estimates the risk to and value of their partner, not to mention having a HEALTHY RESPECT of the sport.
It is those who don’t appreciate the above we are having problems with.
Poor Lucinda, maybe it has all gotten lost in translation?
Being British and all!
Shame on you others for joining in on the lynching, are you in the group who can only drop the reins in the free walk, F X H!
John Posey — February 17, 2009 @ 5:33 pm
I am writing from long-past experiences and having been peripheral to the horse world for many years…but I have to say one thing that has not changed since the beginning of the domestication of the horse, is this central fact : Man is the Master and Horse is the Beast of Burden. Man makes the rules and the Horse follows the rationale/direction of the Master (very often blindly).
How would a horse ever be expected to be the one to ’save himself’ in such a totally unnatural event as jumping some incredibly huge obstacle at (often) full speed, when the Rider does not have it quite right? I have seen many horses save riders in error (and how fortunate!), but ultimately it is the sports rider that is responsible for himself AND for his horse. WE created the sport for OUR pleasure and for OUR honor in athletics (and the stakes keep getting higher!). WE have a huge responsibility to take care of the horse (honorably!) from the minute we put him to work for us to reach our (oftentimes absurd) goals. Planning the safest obstacles and using OUR common sense relative to a horses natural instincts to run and jump has been central to the sport since chasing foxes across the open country and getting from one field to the next.
RDover2 — February 17, 2009 @ 7:27 pm
Once again, I am so happy that people like Jo and Deanna
Are willing to make their case, even strongly against my opinion
Regarding the statement by Lucinda Green at the USEA convention.
And I totally understand that the sport of 3-day is in peril, but
That is honestly not the fault of most people writing about it.
Those serious and sometimes fatal falls to horses and riders are the true
Reason why there is such a great deal of discussion and now hopeful
Change coming to the sport.
But I must tell you, Deanna, that I evented up to open intermediate for years before
I began to specialize in Dressage and was an A pony clubber along side
Some of our top 3-day riders like Wash Bishop and Ralph Hill. So I have ventured out of the box
More than a few times in my career.
But for the sake of this discussion let’s reconsider the situation.
If what you say is right, I just didn’t understand what Lucinda meant
When she said that riders should not have to see a distance since the horse should
Horse should take care of their own legs. Yes, she did say that the rider needs to understand
Pace and balance which I totally agree with, but you can’t disregard that she said
What she did about seeing a distance.
So here’s the thing. Lucinda was not just speaking to people like you who obviously
Could read between the lines far better than I. She was speaking to everyone, including beginners
And this message is, in my opinion, not one that is a service to the
“Normal” rider competing at lower levels. When I am out teaching clinics and symposia,
I remember that every word I say can and probably will be disected
In the press and online by the masses. It is my responsibility to send messages
Which are responsible and speak to the highest principles of
Horsemanship.
If you really want to know what I think, it is that all cross-country
Fences should have pins which allow the fence to lower and if they do the rider
Should be penalized 20 points. If the fence is hit hard enough to fall,
Getting points deducted is a hell of a lot better then seeing any more
Rotational falls on course.
Doing this would create a safer sport and better riding in the long run.
RD
deanna — February 17, 2009 @ 9:20 pm
I agree Robert that much can be done in the safety of the cross country fences and overall, what is asked to be jumped!
We must believe that good things are in the works and hopefully horses lives can be saved.
Not that I wish any human harm, but like many readers out there, they have the choice over what they do; the equine does not.
However such changes need to be questioned. Why necessary after all these years?
As for the horse seeing the distance, they must see something? Do any of us really understand what that truly is?
For the beginners, I hear what you say about being in the media “spotlight” and nothing being missed. That is a tough place to be, no envy there!
At the lower levels, I would rather see that beginner off the back, loopy rein with balance and pace (not speed) riding their line!
Hopefully some of those beginners can get that message from Lucinda if that after all is what she was trying to get across.
Just for discussion, have you watched a horse free jump a shoot? You have seen them come into the line, leave off the first close, shuffle out figuring the rest of the gymnastic along the way?
They must see something in addition to having the ability to work it out, shortening and lengthening, getting the job done.
I do feel this is what Lucinda was after.
All horses should start free jumping and jumping on the longe, solo.
Maybe naive of me, thinking they need to work it out and that they can without the interference of a rider. Only helping to quide them forward when they have the elementary knowledge and growing confidence, still allowing them to do the job.
Also, I must agree with Jo on the dissolution of the long format.
Changed for those breeding horses not suitable for the sport, to accomodate them; NOT the sport. $$$$
Deanna
susan — February 19, 2009 @ 12:04 pm
Robert here’s the piece of the pie you so obviously are missing: rotational falls are not happening because of the distance from the fence the horse is taking off, but rather the balance at which they arrive at that distance. With the appropriate balance and impulsion a horse can jump 12″ from the base and have a tight bascule and land going in great form. The same horse without appropriate balance and impulsion can take off at the exact same 12″ from the base and vomit over the top. The difference? Balance and impulsion NOT the distance. Therefore the issue from a safety perspective SHOULD be on finding the right balance not on finding the right distance, and Lucinda is one of the very few voices out there actually addressing the issue that way.
Since you did not show the courtesy to your readers of linking any of Lucinda’s comments or commentary they are unable discover for themselves that it isn’t so much that her theories are that “one should not see a spot” as they are if you prioritize riding with “balance, engine, and line” that the correct distances and spots will make themselves so readily apparent that the horse, being in a position/balance to do so, will have adjusted himself before a rider can be aware of the need to do so.
Here’s something else that I think Lucinda knows that you don’t. The *average* horse with the appropriate balance, impulsion and line to the fence when they are not interfered with by the rider will have a greater rate of accuracy at finding a distance than the accuracy of the *best* riders who have complete control over their horse’s stride and mandate the distance to the horse. It might be hard on the ego, but their are some things that horses when given the chance are better at than humans–even if they are not particularly intelligent–especially if it deals with the use and propensity their own bodies. (Although, perhaps if you rode more TBs you might reassess your view of the average intelligence level of horses.)
One final thought. As a teacher Robert, when trying to teach a student how to produce a collected gait do you tell them to ride down the long side in 20 short strides or do you tell them to ride the hind end with more engagement that alters the balance so the front end is lifted which, by the way, will cause the horse to shorten the length of its steps. Both methods can produce 20 strides down the long side, one correctly and the other, maybe, maybe not. Lucinda addresses the root of arriving correctly at a fence by focusing on balance over distance just as a good dressage instructor teaches sound fundamentals by focusing on riding a horse from back to front, because an the end of the day it’s missing the balance that gets horses and riders hurt, not missing the distance.
RDover2 — February 19, 2009 @ 6:00 pm
Hey Susan, I think you may have me confused with another Robert Dover who didn’t ride thoroughbreds thoughout his entire youth in Pony Club, got his A rating on one, evented through open Intermediate on one, and still loves riding them whenever they come to his arena. I also played polo, did 50 mile endurance rides, rode hunters and jumpers, played with cutting horses and helped an occasional Saddlebred.
And I also want to tell you that I fell in love with Lucinda back in 1984 at the Olympics in L.A. when she galloped right through the dressage arenas on the track and jumped over the very large deviders between the track and the infield. Then she galloped directly across the infield and jumped straight out back over the fence and once again over the other when she got to the outside of the track, and off she went like a streak. She was amazing and still is one of the greats!
Still, all the stuff you are saying she believes philosophically was not in the Chronicle article and, just so you know, I would have been more than happy to add a link to her comments and commentary had there been one to link. (please send me one and I will immediately put it up.) What was in the Chronicle story was the quote to which I took exception. If it is not what she truly believes then I am surprised she did not write to rectify and make accurate her training principles, which is exactly what I would have done.
Now, I still disagree with your conclusion as to why horses have rotational falls, but I will agree that a lack of balance is the cause for almost all mistakes with horses, regardless of the discipline. That still does not speak to my point- that all riders who want to jump fences should be required to learn, as best they can, to see a distance. You are also right that poor riding often disturbs what would have been a fine distance and brings the animal to a very deep or long spot. These riders should be kept at a level which allows the best chance for the horse to often climb their way out of trouble as they are so adept at doing. That is until the fences become just too large for them to get out of trouble.
So this brings me back to, instead of fighting over why rotational falls are occurring in such great numbers,let’s figure out a way to make them harder to happen. Pins which allow the fences to collapse when rapped hard enough is, to me, a big part of the solution. The other thought I also put forward is to deduct points for lowering the obsticles, thereby encouraging riding which exhibits those qualities you said are vital such as balance, pace, impulsion, line and, oh yes, an eye for the distance.
And just so you know, I am loving, loving, loving the great discussions from smart, interesting people like yourself. Keep ‘em comin!
RD
RDover2 — February 20, 2009 @ 9:56 am
Oh, and just so everyone understands, I love the 3-day event as well as the riders who compete in it. I also founded the Equestrian Aid Foundation though which has incresingly had more applicants from the event world each year, in a large part due to these falls.
So if it appears that I am in any way against the sport, I am sorry. I just want horses and riders to compete in the safest manner possible.
RD
Don — February 20, 2009 @ 8:32 pm
I’m so glad to see you commented on this topic. As you probably know HBO ran a segment on Real Sports, telling of the huge spike in the number of fatal falls on the cross country courses at large events.
Why would any caring person run the animal they are suppose to love down a ditch or over obstacles that will definately cause injury, if they happen to be too tired to get over them, since many of these events take place in the summer heat. I just never got it….and don’t want to.
RDover2 — February 20, 2009 @ 10:14 pm
Don, I truly believe that most top riders act faithfully in the best interest of the horse.
Sometimes, when our adrenaline gets going we misjudge just how much energy is left in the tank.
Nervous energy is not the same thing as impusion and strength which Is why race horse trainers don’t like to see horses sweating and foamy necked before the leave the gait.
I do not believe that HBO showed a balanced, fair account of the entire sport, and I really think that everyone is doing the best they can to come up with good solutions to the problems which exist.
Some of my favorite horse people are 3-day riders and trainers, like Mark Phillips, who is for me one of the finest coaches I’ve ever met.
He loves the horses, the riders, and the sport, and shows it every day of his life in his training.
Our entire team is made up of people I’ve been honored to consider friends, like David and Karen O’Conner, whose Mom, Sally was among my favorite trainers when I was a pony clubber. She raised a family of top horse people who exhibit their love for the animals every day.
Honestly, my gripe was never with the people or even their training methods. It was just that when giving a speech to the masses, we trainers, regardless of our disciplines, must consider the words we use. Words have huge power and implications and while many are able to read the inner meaning behind them, most take them literally and that is where the danger lies.
Always teach as if you were teaching a child to understand your theories. It is the safest way to know that what you say is really what you mean.
RD
Melissa Hare Jones — February 21, 2009 @ 9:24 am
If the NSA can see its way to constructing safer fences to protect its horses and riders, surely our eventing community can benefit from the same wisdom. Accidents and injuries will still happen with breakaway rails and frangible pins, but if just one life is saved, isn’t the change worth it?
Whenever you get on a horse, you take risks. Staying safe in any equestrian sport is about mitigating those risks (thorough education, carefully choosing the right horse and the right venue to ride him in, designing the type of challenge that teaches and elevates skill without destroying confidence or body). We’ll never get rid of the true accident, but we can take steps to reduce the chances one will happen.
I do absolutely believe horses develop their own “eye for a distance”… how else do they regularly save their rider’s ass when a mistake is made? But by adding speed and height and width and a solid obstacle to the equation, we reduce their chance to compensate. Yes, we must ride better, but we should also make the obstacle less dangerous for those moments when we simply do not.