Two-Way Streets vs One -Way Roads
So here’s the thing - I’m not sure if I’m barking up the wrong tree here, but I was under the assumption that this blogging thing was going to be more of a 2-way street. I mean, I keep trying to come up with interesting stuff to talk with you guys about, but most of the time I’m obviously just talking to myself because aint nobody answering!
Now, that is not to say that I feel like people are not reading my site. I know by tracking the numbers that many thousands of you are coming to Dover’s World every week, but maybe you can call me an “attention hog” ’cause I want people I write to write back.
Maybe it’s another Jewish thing I can blame on my mother. You know that one about how the kids never call or write and definitely stay away from home too long between visits. Hmm. I’ll have to think about that possibility.
One thing I am sure of is how to push people’s buttons so they will write in. All I have to do is say something about hyper-flexion or, as they call it, Rollkur, and I’m bound to get a bunch of irate readers wildly complaining about those who would commit such an atrocity. But, since we already covered that subject ad-nauseum, I have to think up some new post which will get my readers to go crazy with me and let me know it.
So let me think. What if I were to say that most dressage riders have controlling personalities? Probably too obvious and not controversial enough, right?
How about this - the reader who writes in the most provocative question or comment which causes gobs of people to respond, will receive a special award from me. Send in your post under this one and I will make the best one into a new thread and tell you what you’ve won. And trust me, it will be good!
Cheers!
RD
Savannah Brentnall — October 29, 2009 @ 7:42 pm
I’m curious about your opinion on the recent controversy regarding Patrik Kittel riding his horse with such force for 2 hours in a warmup ring that the horse’s tongue turned blue and flopped limply out of his mouth.
We don’t have to reopen the rollkur debate–I’m sure even supporters of the technique would have difficulty justifying its use for 2 straight hours. I’m more interested in why NO ONE WATCHING DID ANYTHING. They averted their eyes and one person complained, but there was no outcry. Why not? Has the “superstar” cult achieved such status in the dressage world that we’re afraid to speak out even when watching such obvious abuse?
Epona TV was filming the whole thing so the facts are not in question. They report that “Odense’s Chief Steward confirmed to EPONA.tv that a complaint was lodged against Patrik Kittel’s riding, but it was not deemed necessary to comment or take action, because Kittel was no worse than other riders using the same method.” WTF? Since when is “everyone’s doing it” a reason to let something abusive/illegal slide?
Epona had the guts to ask Patrik himself about the episode. “‘I think you should send the questions in an email along with the footage, so I can give it to my lawyers,” he said. When they asked him if he rides in accordance with the FEI Code of Conduct, he replied “Of course I do. Otherwise a steward would do something about it. But I don’t want to discuss it with you now. Have a good day.”
It seems to me that the FEI is saying they can’t enforce a rule because too many top riders are breaking it, and the riders are saying that if the FEI doesn’t do anything, it’s not illegal.
So who’s speaking for the horses?
Savannah Brentnall — October 29, 2009 @ 7:44 pm
Btw, if you ask your web guy to allow people to log in via facebook connect to post comments, their comments will show up in their facebook news streams, which exposes both the comments and your blog to all that user’s facebook friends.
kenn acebal — October 29, 2009 @ 11:33 pm
Robert,
Vous êtes bienvenu ! ! Je pense que je suis à l’extrémité de mon Français maintenant ! ! ! Je prévois de descendre à Wellington, et fais deux ou trois expositions de nouveau au dos, peut-être 2 voyages. Ou peut venir à la fin de l’hiver et passer quelques semaines.
I don’t really need to come for the whole winter this year, next year i will need to spend a lot of time there.
Here is my email , i would like to talk to you about this really special horse that i have. My best to you and Robert , and please say hi to your mother again. Tell her that i am thinking of which story about you i am going to relay to her !!! She wants it for her Mentor article. And i know about the strugles that your father is facing now…..and my thoughts and prayers are with him and your family.
Kenn
email addy akenincali@aol.com
VEry funny, i know all anyone has to say is the word……………rolkur………… and they all gasp , but of course most have not seen it used in system that knows how to use it and how to not use to long. Any training method can be used to an extreme. LIke most things in life , both things good for you and bad for you, everything in moderation.
You could also mention “classical ” vrs. “modern” I wonder how many of the pure classical followers have been to the Spanish Riding School Museum in Vienna and taken a look at the methods and “tools ” used in classical riding in the classical era…….Kind of looks like a torture chamber hmmmmmmmmmmm that should get someone ranting!
I may have an interesting scenario regarding your call for Canadian horses and riders. Send me a note on my email.
Have a great clinic this weekend.
Kenn
robert Dover — October 30, 2009 @ 1:25 am
Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Acebal! A bien tot.
RD
mary — October 30, 2009 @ 8:03 am
Hi Robert,
I love your blog. And I comment to my clients all of the time about it. I don’t respond often and that is because you are such a big gun, I sometimes feel my opinion would be too small. However I do practice daily and compete regionaly with success so I should feel more confident. I do have one question when you speak of the Canadian elite athletes I haven’t seen Cindy Ishoy’s name mentioned is she between horses? btw thanks for all of the current info you bring to the table.
Sandra McGuire — October 30, 2009 @ 10:14 am
Robert,
Your frustrations are felt by many who write blogs and other electronically communicated forums. “Why are people not responding?” I look at my husband’s Facebook account and the questions he gets responses to, and I look at how few comments my friends make. I think that there are a few reasons, at least why I may not respond as often as you’d like.
1) Much as you feel the “why don’t you call, why don’t you write?”, I have lived by the addage “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open you mouth and remove all doubt”. If I say something to someone in conversation, or a meeting, I usually roll it around in my head a bit, and since they can ask questions and such, there is no permanent record of my saying something foolish. Once it’s out there in cyberspace, it’s there for good. And I’ve been trying to drill this thought into the heads of a few young friends.
2) I think on the horsemanship end of things, I’m pretty darn good. I go online and read books and magazines on horse care and really try to put it into practice. But when it comes to riding, and people asking an opinion, I’ve ridden a schooling show at intro level. Yes, my husband and I have worked to get our spooky Appendix down trail and able to be ridden outside, but should I really be the one responding when someone asks the question about getting her mare comfortable outside, I’ve been there, but I’m sure that there are others who have been there with more than one horse, so I tend not to want to sound like an undereducated know-it-all.
3) I tend to be a perfectionist and think about things for a while before I get them right. So often, unless it’s a topic I’ve thought a lot about, I let it roll around in my head for a few days and may or may not be able to find it again. Then I look at the day entries of others and wonder if this is too old a thought. Have we moved on? Maybe we need to be reminded that this site is a lot like learning dressage. You can revisit the basics when you have moved to the next level because the depth of understanding of the basics, and the execution of them will be much richer.
lita dove — October 30, 2009 @ 10:21 am
Hey-I write in faithfully!
LOL
People can only ’see’ what they already understand.
So when I look at Patrik Kittel, I see a rider skilfully handling a young breeding stallion in a crowded, intense warm=up arena.
Other people see son of the great Satan.
So my question is,
HOW to reconcile such disparate views?
How in a sport that straddles art and perception and prejudice born out of knowledge and experience– HOW to explain and educate and unite, when all of us love and respect our horses?
Sandra McGuire — October 30, 2009 @ 10:48 am
Ok, so after my rambling about why I am a chicken and don’t put things out there, I’m going to pose something that’s a half-thought and see if anyone else feels this way. These are the things that are swimming in my head and the questions are not totally thought out, but, well, you can’t ride Grand Prix if you never put your foot in the stirrup. And remember Mr. Dover, you asked for it.
Beginning riding instruction in my area is poor. There are exactly 2 instructors who I would recommend to friends to take their kids to for lessons.
There are people who can sit on a horse and get them to “do things” and collect ribbons, but are not horseman, and may not be able to teach a good seat and a good foundation to students. But they have lesson programs that are very profitable.
So this brings me to my dilemma and questions. What does it take to be a good riding instructor?
I’ve had barn owners ask me to teach lessons after watching me ride and work with a few friend’s kids who’ve taken a spin on my horse. I have a horse who, as one judge put it, is “quite clever” so I’ve learned a lot from him, and from a few good instructors. But if they think I should instruct, how bad are things?
What makes a good riding program? Is focusing on the basics enough, maybe doing a few fun shows to encourage those with potential and set them on the path for bigger and better?
We have a training scale for the horse, but has anyone thought about/communicated one for the rider? If we are part of an athletic team, then one of us needs to start thinking about our position on the field.
How can those of us who have another job that buys the haycubes contribute to our sport, and horses in general, so that everyone who wants to learn to ride can be the best partner they can be to their equine athletes and teachers?
Ok, so that’s more than one question. Thanks for the prod.
Beth Collier — October 30, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
I had a fabulous ongoing chat with your Mom about the seven dwarfs who showed up to replace her shutters. She Rocks!
Flannery — October 30, 2009 @ 3:37 pm
It won’t create a sustained stream of responses, but it is a timely, fun topic…costume contest?
Marci Brown — October 30, 2009 @ 10:07 pm
Flannery…. I like it , and very timely ! My 12yr old son Caleb, has informed me that tomorrow for halloween he is bringing his horse to town and they are going to be the “headless horseman” so… now to figure out his costume !
Then my best friend and side kick, Stephanie ( see posts on other threads for a better understanding of her mental state) had the brilliant idea that we should both ride horses in costume to accompany Caleb and his mare in town. Great….. so that leaves me with three horses and riders to outfit ! Any ideas folks ? I found a cool picture on line of a lady that painted her horse orange with black stripes, like a tiger, and she dressed as a lion tamer…. I loved it , but not sure I am that patient !
Beth Collier — October 31, 2009 @ 10:33 am
I know someone who had a big tubby horse, so she used orange dye to make him a pumpkin for Halloween.
I remember one small hunter schooling show where the first class was a costume class– I was riding a touchy, spooky horse, so I made sure we didn’t go near anyone with a costume– especially the headless horseman who had done a very good job with his costume!
Victoria Lee — October 31, 2009 @ 10:46 am
Here are some provocative questions …..
Why is it that Europeans are so far ahead of us in this Sport????
How can we explain European horses performing at far higher standards of excellence in the hands of Europeans in Europe…and then being purchased by a North American rider and coming to North America….and then not performing to the same standards….?
How is it that we have access to great European bloodlines, produce them here in North America and then ……..well……..nothing…..and yet the same blood in Europe in the hands of European Riders…are scoring 10 -20 points above our standards in North America for top Horse/Rider teams at FEI Competition.
How can we continue to concern ourselves about the ethical treatment of training methods by others while we continue to ride our horses….well… backwards. We are never going in a dare I say it “European style” of forward moving, rhythmical, gymnastic way that matches our horses capabilities…instead we re behind the vertical….lolly gagging along….behind the horses natural movement sitting comfortably on high laurels about things that we have no feel for, while expounding on theory. It is great to have theory but it really needs to be backed up by natural feel… not the other way around!
Flannery — October 31, 2009 @ 5:23 pm
Marci- Quick & easy costumes. For better or worse, I kept some outfits of old that have become fantastic costumes. Anything that screams a certain decade is always quick and easy. I had a good laugh when I looked in a mirror and remember when I had thought the outfit was “so fashion forward.” Men in black is an old idea, but fun and easy. The rider is the man/woman in black and the horse is the alien. Non-toxic, temp hair colors from a halloween store make great spots to help the “alien transformation.” Canadian mounty?
Ronnie — November 2, 2009 @ 9:23 am
Short question with room for a very long debate.
Does the Happy Athlete excist? Is it possible, really, to use horses (or other animals) on an international competition level with all that encompasses of stress and variation in the environment, without compromising the natural needs of the animal?
Maggie Mae — November 2, 2009 @ 12:25 pm
Why are people willing to spend big $$$$$ on imported horses when here in North America we have some great breeding. Sure we are behind by 100’s of years of selective breeding, but we have come a long way. Is it because we as NA breeders aren’t willing to cull our herds of foundation or inferior mares and stallions and keep breeding at the same level? Is it because we keep our stud books open at some registries? Is it because we are not as educated as breeders in other countries? What makes people think that European bred horses are better than the N.A. bred horses?
Victoria Lee — November 4, 2009 @ 12:45 pm
At the risk of sounding one sided I would like to reiterate regarding the necessity to look past the question of whether we here in North America are at par at this point with horse breeding in Europe. There is no doubt of that for most people, in fact there are a few stallions or competitive horses that have been bred in North America and eventually found their way back to Europe becoming Ambassadors to their Breed Registries i.e., Peron Trakehner Stallion.
I think we need to ask ourselves why 3 to 6 year old horses in Europe with the same bloodlines as others of the same age in N.A. are worth the effort it takes to purchase and import these genetically similar horses to N.A. O.K….3 words….. Training, Training, Training!
We are inferior at starting our young horses in comparison to our European counterparts. We have very, very few working riders that are truly equipped with the ability to understand when and how to put a young horse together enough to build on and connect to their natural skills… and I feel to make matters worse we are lacking the “Eyes on the Ground” that can support the Training scale methodology.
Here in N.A., it is rare to find people that one could call a Grand Prix School Master that is available or prepared to put a fulltime effort into the supervision required to facilitate a program whereby the potentials and advancement of talented young horses and experienced riders are cultivated and advanced accordingly, yet in Europe there are Schools and Studs of this type…aplenty!
I have no doubt change will come…like the talented bloodlines that are already here in North America and improving steadily we are going to evolve with our ability to create centers or schools similar to those in Europe whereby talented horses and talented riders are awarded the opportunity for competitive development because we are slowly cultivating our riders and programs toward this goal. For now …a talented young horse in N .A. with great movement or not…rarely gets the benefit of proper initial development because we are still behind in our movement of developing Rider’s (or a sustainable industry for them to survive in) that are equipped with the experience to bring out the potentials of our young horses.
As long as we have green horse / green trainer/rider combinations we are going to be loosing our market share to Europe that has a healthy inventory of experienced talented trainers that can offer and facilitate that polished difference to a young horse’s potentials and present a more sophisticated Sale therein.
Maggie Mae — November 4, 2009 @ 1:22 pm
Victoria Lee, you make sounds arguements here. So how do we start the process? I find that sometimes we are so busy being at odds with one another that there is no common goal. It is mostly about selling horses not about improving our image here in N.A. concerning our programs and animals. I think it would be a great idea to work toward developing and cultivating our riders/trainers to support this goal as you say. What would people think of a certain percentage of governing body fees or entry fees go towards developing a system to support this even now we are facing increases. Yet we cannot outprice ourselves from the grass roots as they are the foundation and the future. Do we lobby for more government support to supplement our existing top riders and trainers. So many questions, but what is the starting point?
Victoria Lee — November 4, 2009 @ 4:28 pm
“Well Maggie”……….we can start by taking your first concern and using it as the formation of our mantra “ Common Ideas and Common Visions can produce Extraordinary Dreams and Impossible Goals”.
We need to work together as an Industry utilizing Europe’s strategies as a Model. Maggie, I think you have some great ideas…
We are not really achieving our goals or helping the Industry to perpetuate (especially with profitability) by producing products that are not being properly utilized…so we need to develop our Industry together from the ground up. If the Gymnastics of a horse and/or Rider might be compared to the gymnastics of a young human Olympic athlete we might recognize that our talented counterparts are working toward their athletic goals from a very early start and are supported by very talented coaching along the way. We need to do this with our discipline. We need many, many talented coaches and teachers available to head programs for equestrians (at every age level). We have technical schools, colleges or Equestrian centers that may qualify as reasonable forums or facsimiles to offer education toward Equine studies either on or off the horse and rewarding with accreditation offered via one system that is at National standards per say whilst paying the Educators/Coaches a reasonable fee. Similar to the German Federation we might consider offering several different Training methodologies i.e., vaulting, long lining, driving, dressage, jumping as a prerequisite for completion of a “Trainers” or “Professional Horseman’s” License nationally recognized which should therefore receive some financial and administrative support from our Associations i.e., USEF, CEF. In the spirit of these lofty ideas it might be considered that Breeders, Breed Registries and Institutes directly impacted by this association jointly participate in the development of superior young horses through selected breeding programs specifically produced for and utilized by these Institutes. These young horses would be schooled by advanced alumni only. An Elite/Selection Auction could be held and could assist or contribute financially to the Breeding Program. Perhaps the top talent of Equestrians thereby qualify for bursaries to higher studies or Sponsorship with talented Equine partners attached to the program or Sponsorship from a pre existing Foundation attached to the Institute and contributed to by all of us in the Industry.
I agree with you Maggie we are suffering from a Fractured Industry. Each of one of us is holding a splinter or a shard but unlike a jigsaw puzzle we have no picture to form even if we could all join together because we have not formed one central image. We are all experts because we are all pretty much self taught…we have all become streetwise enough to survive…but surviving is not going to propel this Industry forward. We need to become central in our educational standards and make them accessible for all. We need to breed for our future not for the immediate trends. We need to understand that we are all keepers of our horses futures..!
kenn acebal — November 4, 2009 @ 11:45 pm
Hi Victoria,
I just want to clear up a little bit of miss information in your letter. Peron was not bred in the United States. He was bred in Germany where he was approved by the Trakehner Verband . He was purchased and imported into Canada by Guenter Bertelleman, who also owned his half brother Donaufurst. Peron then stood a season at Pat Goodman’s Wonderland Farm in Pennsylvania . It is then that i found and purchased him as a 4 year old for Dr Carol Meyer Ghattas. She then sponsored me with him, i was very young then, and i went into training with Robert Dover. I , aong with Robert’s training and guidence developed him over the next 7 years during which he was trained to grand prix. After a split with the owners and i, Peron found his way to Michele Gibson , who with the expert trainig of Rudolph Zeilienger achieved fame at the 1996 Olymoics in Atlanta.
Best regards,
Kenn Acebal
Victoria Lee — November 5, 2009 @ 11:06 am
Hello Kenn:
Thank you for clearing up my misinformation regarding Peron. I am most apologetic for my inaccuracies. I was writing from my heart and my head in the heat of the moment. The worst part is I should be more conscientious and better informed since I am the keeper of 6 Trakehners myself. I stand corrected regarding the breeding origin of the great Stallion Peron….for some reason I was thinking of Valhalla farms and I do apologize for my not researching before making incorrect assumptions.
I fear I am offering a knee jerk reaction to Maggie’s concerns that we are not breeding the same caliber of horse here in North America that is being produced in Europe. I was searching for an example that might support my argument that we are better to scrutinize our training and development programs for our horses more closely then the bloodlines of our Equine partners, because I feel that the breeding programs in N.A. or Europe are fairly comparable with the selections and/or availability of great bloodlines in N.A.
I have had Breeding stock in my stable in Langley, B.C., that was represented by direct European Imports (well documented/established regarding performance records in Europe) with their N.A. born offspring at their side and not being able to impress perspective buyers because of the Buyer’s preference in making a trip to Europe to buy directly.
I used Peron as an example of a great horse that had accomplished great things in a theatre that was composed of many N.A. Players and that is mostly what I remember of Peron. Thanks to people like yourself and Robert Dover and Michele Gibson and Rudolf Zeilinger you proved that there are no borders for us in this discipline and that we can all work together to achieve common goals. The great training, handling and promotion of a great potential does indeed produce extraordinary things that we all grow from. You helped to produce a horse that became a Hero to many of us…especially here in N.A…I had forgotten that his origin was Germany…Once again, I do apologize! I will always remember that this horse named Peron made a lot of people here in N.A. very hopeful and definitely very proud…and obviously you and our other Hero Robert Dover were a very important part of that…hence our young horses need talented riders in order to achieve loftier heights…like those of Peron….Thank you!
JAMES — November 5, 2009 @ 8:41 pm
HEY THERE ROBERT TOOK YOUR ADVICE AND CHECKED OUT YOUR SITE, PREETY IMPRESSIVE,, YOU ARE SO GREAT AT TELLING YOUR EXPERIENCES, SEE YOU IN THE SALON JAMES BLASI M.A SALON & SPA
Maggie Mae — November 7, 2009 @ 5:54 pm
I have been thinking of things over the last couple of days. My fear isn’t that we are breeding an inferior animal, my fear is that we do not do a good enough job to convince potential buyers in N.A. to look in their own back yard first. I have done some reading on the riding schools in Europe and how they produce riders, trainers, etc. Part of the training incurrs knowing more abou the horse, from anotomy to behaviour, etc. Do we need something here along the same lines. As was stated, the same bloodlines can be found on either side of the pond, especially with the availability of Frozen and AI. Somehow we do not do a good enough job of letting people know, or showing people that we indeed are producing better quality animals year after year. It seems we are all about the line shows and foal championships as breeders and then after that we loose site of what happens. Those of you out there with a NA born and bred competitor tell me of your accomplishments. Love to hear them.
Should we be focusing on developing our talent base with the riders/trainers in order that they can bring along our animals along. The horse industry supports a mulitude of employment not just at the tack and farms, but think of the spin off, hay and feed suppliers, bedding, tack shops, veterinary medicine, farriers, grooms, etc. Perhaps if we banded together we could work on just that. I don’t know how to make a difference or put the wheel in motion.
Kenn acebal — November 8, 2009 @ 2:44 am
Victoria Lee,
Thank you for your kind words and thoughts!! And no worries about knwo all of the Peron Story , he was a wonderful hero of the United States and was trained and developed here , ridden by a very talented driven American , with final touches in Europe !!
I think part of the breeding North America vs Europe is that we have only recentely become seriose about breeding sport horses in north america vs the hundreds o fyears in europe. I believe that the gap will continue to narrow.
We must also take into accout the amazing diversity of breeds here. If you took all the breeders of Saddlbreds, Arabians, Quarter Horses Walking horses, Hackney Ponies, Paso Finos, Morgans etc………you get my drift ………and had them all breeding sport horse warmbloods, we wouldl have a quite a leg up. there are , of course different breeds disiplines in Europe , but not the major show horses are sport horses.
Look at the breeds that are truly unique that were developed here in the USA, Saddlebreds, ,Morgans, Quarter horses, Walking Horses Standardbreeds !!!
As a trainer , when i have customers looking at horses , i always try to find something here first , but one of the problems , is the distances we must travel After you look at one horse on FLorida and another in California the go to Vancouver, the time and expense becomes increasingly prohibitive, On a trop to Europe , we can step off the plane and start looking the first day > YOu can see 50, 75 , a hundred young horses in a week. As the Euro becomes even stronger to the dollar it becomes an advantage to shop here and support our own breeders. I do believe that this day will come!! Thanks to people like you who thoughtfully breed for better quality with each cross, I know that the breeding business can have many many hurdles , but there are wonderful successes, and the breeders must truly love it with none of the glory
Best regards,
Kenn
p.s. thank you for your dedication and passion!!!
Victoria Lee — November 8, 2009 @ 11:38 am
Hey Kenn…..You had me at Hello!
Likewise dear Sir….. regarding your kind words. They are most gracious, but they belong to a person like Maggie who sounds like she is not just a thoughtful person but a thoughtful horse breeder as well.
I am merely a Student of Dressage and possibly a “Poster Child” for all things that one should never do if they truly want to advance to International Competition.
I have made a lot of mistakes, ones that obviously cost me any hope of reaching those potentials….and now at age 52…I am still trying to define who I am in the Industry and how I might find a way to fit in…..this I fear is the never ending saga for me and my passion toward this Sport and scarily similar to the movie “Groundhog Day”!.
When “Industry Peers” such as yourself and Robert Dover offer words of wisdom and share some of your ideas, thoughts…it not only inspires …you give people like myself direction and hope!….Thank you!!!