The Power Of Words
Since creating Dover’s World, I have become more and more aware of the power of words. It became abundantly clear to me when I was trying to make a point about the lack support by many for our sport of Dressage, that it only takes a few poorly chosen words to inflame a veritable storm of controversy.
But I think that, to be honest, the FEI’s choice of wording regarding the use of Rolkur ( something I’m still not certain is a real word at all) at competitions is going to produce way more confusion than their needed to be. How are the stewards going to be trained to discern the difference between “aggressive force” to make a horse go deep from “non-aggressive ” means to a similar frame. And what seems aggressive on one horse which, for all sort of reasons may be very dull to the rider’s aids, can look like the animal which is extremely sensitive is being tortured. A couple of weeks ago I watched riders at the World Masters in Wellington and came to the following conclusion. Very forward thinking, well trained horses were being ridden in various frames
, none of which seemed at all to bother these wonderful animals in any detrimental way. On the other hand, I noted that at least 2 riders used the whip in an effort to make or keep their horses going forward through most if not all collected movements, especially piaffe and passage. In these cases the whip was used almost step for step, which aroused seemingly nobody’s attention other than, perhaps, my own, as I felt sorry for the horses who had to endure the constant being struck behind the saddle with the stick.
Which brings me to the conclusion that better wording should have been used for future guidelines on warming -up regulations.
“Any action by the rider which causes UNDUE PAIN or BEWILDERMENT to the horse should be deemed abuse by the rider and dealt with appropriately by the stewards”.
–I believe most if not all of us truly know when an animal is being abused when we are right there and witnessing it. This is not necessarily true from things we see a snippit here and there on the internet from though, which is why such determinations must be left to those with authority on the show grounds. I believe that we are on a very slippery slope right now and the wording used to describe behavior which is or is not allowable or appropriate at competitions should and must be very carefully thought through, lest we end up in a very dangerous situation for our beautiful sport.
Cheers!
RD
lita dove — February 20, 2010 @ 11:16 am
Let’s hope that the group headed (again) by Frank Kemperman recognizes the slippery slope and amends the language and safeguards the rights of riders.
Of course, I am still waiting for the camera-ready group to run around the jumping arenas to watch for any aggressive riding.
I REALLY hope that the stewards are given training and help in repelling the enormous number of ‘citizen arrests’ I expect at showgrounds in the near future.
victoria lee — February 20, 2010 @ 11:25 am
Hi Robert:
When you got some flack about the weather….I would have thought you might have stayed away from this….but you are a bear for punishment
I have a question….?? You are saying (speaking of words) that it might be difficult to discern the difference between “aggressive force” as opposed to non aggressive force” to achieve an end result that otherwise appears to be a similar frame??? Am I interrupting your phraseology correctly? And if so…I am wondering how a horse can be placed into a reasonably interruptable harmonic frame via the aggressive route??? I am of the mind (a very simple one in comparison to yours)…that to achieve a deep and harmonic frame is the result of energizing the horse and placing this energy in both a forward momentum as well as storing some of the energy and allowing it to be expressed through a propulsion that escapes via elevation and suspension that provides a rhythmic tempo…a kind of balancing act between the muscles over the back while stretching the top line thru the neck. Is it really possible that the appearance of a horse in the maximum position that is referred to a hyper flexion or rollkur or whatever is position that can be accomplished and ridden in and out of without obvious signs of duress to both horse and rider??? I am naive enough to imagine that this overriding is somewhat more obvious and quicker to recognise. Can you clarify or offer more insight?
Or not…:)
Allison — February 21, 2010 @ 12:01 am
words, words, words…..
Allison — February 21, 2010 @ 12:02 am
Undue Pain and bewilderment- not ok- thats the point.
Michelle — February 21, 2010 @ 11:49 am
Victoria I’m scratching my head here…I think I explained myself about the weather issue and if someone is going to blog and promote it as Robert does I’m pretty sure his ego can take people not always agreeing with him. I’m not sure why you cut yourself down when you compare your mind as not being worthy of Robert’s? I happen to think you are very bright and thoughtful with your opinions.
Victoria Lee — February 21, 2010 @ 1:41 pm
Hi Michelle: Thank you for your support and kind words. Make no mistake…I do not cut myself down for anybody
I am referring to the experience and knowledge that Mr. Dover has which of course is far more extensive and expert to mine. I have not been near an International warm up arena since I was a young girl in Germany and “GoGo Boots were Hip”….and that was many moons ago! I have never seen any horse warming up in a Dressage Arena that was being over extended or disconnected at the withers and cranked around, sideways or under to any extreme that I personally would ever consider as abusive. I have seen horses and Riders under extreme pressure and are trying to contend with external distractions that cause moments of discontent and a need for discipline. I read Mr. Dover’s blog and found myself wondering about how much flexion is aggressive and/or what is the potential for an Official to determine this aggression. When Mr. Dover discussed the potential subtlety of this action…I was hoping that he might help give a little deeper description since I find myself totally confused about the existence of this entity they call “Rollkur”…! In my mind…I am picturing someone who is reefing a horses head and neck around via extreme “bit” contact and probably not whilst engaged in any forward moving fluid rhythmical movement???? That the intention is to in fact over extend and hyper flex the muscle groups in the neck and mouth so that when the horse is released from this hyper tension….there is a sense of elasticity or resultantly the muscles will almost involuntarily relax which would create a pseudo-softening and yielding to the desired frame and contact the rider is looking for (I am guessing). Yes …. No… I do not know….I am just asking out loud??? Some how though….I do not feel that my opinions are being construed as “thoughtful” right now….I feel like I am in a crowded elevator…and everybody thinks I am the one that farted (and it’s not just cause I live in Mexico and eat a lot of Frijoles)!?!?!?! I hope that no one is disgusted with my asking these innately annoying questions….but isn’t that what we are supposed to do when we don’t know? Ask the guys upstairs???? So keeping it light and hopefully not (fanatical) or to offend anybody…I do indeed have a desire to discern the difference and thought I would kick the question around…..(and by the way….I will always ask you to pull my finger first).
Michelle — February 21, 2010 @ 7:18 pm
LOL Victoria you are funny:) I don’t see anything fanatical about your question and I don’t anyone would.
RDover2 — February 21, 2010 @ 7:41 pm
So here’s the thing. I’m not sure why people can’t get the point I am trying to make that,for example, hitting a horse with a whip every stride in piaffe and passage is just as bad as pulling its head up or down into a frame. This is why I said that “anything which produces undue pain or bewilderment to the horse should be strictly forbidden”.
There- is that clear enough?
RD
Victoria Lee — February 21, 2010 @ 9:19 pm
Not really…it did nothing to answer my question or relate to my question in any way…and I actually did get your point and it was a very good one at that????
Ouch! I feel like I have perhaps ruffled some feathers here….and I certainly hope that is not the case!…Am I missing something or have I posted ridiculously harsh or insensitive information and been otherwise crass in my comments or questions?….if so it is unwittingly I assure you…and I apologize profusely! I thought blogs were about opening up healthy dialogue? I didn’t mean to apply undue pressure on anybody or cause a disgruntlement regarding my question. About the weather…It is still sunny here
RDover2 — February 21, 2010 @ 9:25 pm
Hi Victoria.
I’m sitting here with Guenter in San Diego where I’ve been giving a clinic for the Canadians and some American riders and I read him your post. Basically, neither he nor I have the slightest clue of exactly what your question is. Why don’t you restate it in very simple terms and I promise to answer in kind.
Thanks and never think I am upset in any way or do not want to be engaged in healthy conversation.
All the best.
RD
Michelle — February 22, 2010 @ 8:18 am
Someone may use the whip in Piaffe every step but I would not think that is something they do on a daily basis or if they are they need to stop riding GP..;) I think most people think that RK/HF/LDR whatever you want to call it:) is used most if not every day. Tick a horse behind the leg with a whip is more of an irritation then pain IMO unlike for example a jockey whipping the horse to the finish line. I personally don’t think you can compare using the whip behind the leg the same as making a horse go around with its nose on its chest for a prolonged period of time. You speak of a BEWILDERMENT to the horse and one could say piaffe and passage would be bewilderment to a horse. I do agree with you 100% that they will have to make if very clear on what is aggressive riding and what is not. Not sure how they will do it but good luck to them.
lita dove — February 22, 2010 @ 11:21 am
Not Robert, but jumping in anyway.
ANY time a rider gives an aid to the horse and that aid is unclear to the horse but the rider just repeats the aid,usually more exaggerated–that is “Bewilderment” for the horse.
THAT is bad riding.
As Kyra Kyrklund likes to do in her clinics, she says something sftly in Finnish, looks around at the blank faces, says it louder, then yells it–and then says,more or less:
“Yelling does not make my words clearer. Nor do louder aids make anything clear to the horse. You have to find a better way.”
Hyperflexion is a positive technique used by many human athletes in many disciplines.
It increases ROM and reduces chance of tearing ligament tissue.
Most riders use hyperflexion nearly every schooling session as a tool.
All tools are only as good as their operators.
All riding is either good riding or bad riding, nothing to do with where the horse’s head but a lot to do with where the rider’s head is in terms of knowledge, experience, generosity and love for the horse.
cheers,
mary — February 22, 2010 @ 11:35 am
mmmm, michelle, why do join a dressage discussion when you question the Grand Prix dressage horse’s handeling and care? Piaffe and Passage should not be considered bewildering the horse. Maybe when you turn out your horse (not my grand prix dressage horse) you should watch when he/she gets a little excited and let me know if that groundcovering, bouncy, expressionate trot is truely not natural. I agree a whip should not be the sole means to achieve power in these movements, but the movement itself is not the problem the whip user is.
michelle — February 22, 2010 @ 11:41 am
Got to disagree with you on that one Lita. Even in the best hands some types of riding can be mentally hard on the horse and I feel riding a horse with his nose on his chest for 20-30 minutes plus is not good riding. I’m not opposed to appropriate discipline.
michelle — February 22, 2010 @ 11:45 am
Mary I’m not sure what your first sentence is trying to say? If Robert is saying anything that is bewilderment to the horse is abuse I was just pointing out having to do piaffe is probably a little bewildering to a horse or for that matter having a double bridle in his mouth. Mary I was trying to say Robert might be going to far in saying bewilderment is abuse. LOL
mary — February 22, 2010 @ 11:55 am
michelle, my horse is not bewildered by piaffe.
in the past you suggested that because not every upper level horse is turned out it is cruel, also now you start about the tack. In my opinion Michelle, I don’t think you want to like this discipline.
That is why I am bewildered by your many posts.
michelle — February 22, 2010 @ 11:56 am
Mary,
I do question the care when people don’t turn their horses out that is just bad horsemanship. Clearly Mary you and I do not agree on this point but I try and go along with nature as much as possible. Maybe if you would turn your Grand Prix horse out you might notice he doesn’t sit down on his haunches and piaffe. Bewilderment might be the FEI’s words and not Robert’s so if that is the case I apologize. I also don’t want this to turn into a turnout issue but I did want to respond to Mary’s post. thanks
michelle — February 22, 2010 @ 11:58 am
I’m sorry Mary you are MISSING the POINT…I’ve noticed that with you and I..:) I was pointing out using the word Bewilderment is silly because many things we do to a horse is bewildering to them including riding them, using bits, asking them to spin, slide, jump, piaffe or passage etc etc etc. Point being that is not the right word.
mary — February 22, 2010 @ 12:15 pm
michelle, my young horse will piaffe at the gate of his turn out when he wants to come in and be ridden.
michelle — February 22, 2010 @ 12:44 pm
Mary maybe he just needs to pee:) Like a little kid will do..:)
Victoria Lee — February 22, 2010 @ 12:59 pm
O.K. well here it goes….so long as I am not doing something bad in anybody’s cereal…O.K.
Where I got stuck and a question mark rose up between my ears was in reading your description from your blog “The Power of Words” ”How are the Stewards going to be trained to discern the difference between “aggressive force” to make a horse go deep from “non aggressive “ means to a similar frame? And for anybody out there in blogland that might be reading…I am not placing a magnifying glass on Mr. Dover’s words…or spelling and punctuation for that matter…..the articulation is actually the same Industry wide right down from the FEI….
My Question (or concern)
Is this really where a lot of attention will be focused? Is it possible that rollkur or let’s call it “aggressive force” is even possible when a rider is bringing a horse together into a deep and round frame? Are we NOT addressing more extreme maneuvers that have raised hackles everywhere …
I guess to include the possibility of one possibly being a byproduct or potential while engaging in the other has me fearing that the net will cast out further against the Dressage community and that Deep and round will become a part of the “aggressive force” issue. Soooo….in my very poor attempt at looking for your clarification or opinion about this…….I got into a diatribe of my own personal opinions on what I think the differences are….sorry! Help me…..Uncle Robert…..
p.s. it’s too warm for a leather jacket here right now….is it any warmer yet where you are? There is a reason why Mexico gave up California and Florida LOL
Victoria
P.S. Lita……jump in any time please….Thank you I find great wisdom and logic in your words. I guess I am worried about the line becoming fuzzy and the practice of hyperflexion that we have evolved into and something that I covet but not more than my horses…potentially becoming the next victom through this issue of rollkur through association alone. Although I feel they are completely unrelated to one another…. as you so aptly stated…”bad riding might try to simulate similar action”. But when these two actions get put into the same sentence I see bad things on the horizon (at least I am not seeing dead people all the time)!
RDover2 — February 22, 2010 @ 1:22 pm
Lita, I could not have said it better myself! Brilliant!
RD
fran Goodsell — February 22, 2010 @ 6:22 pm
Really Robert?? you think what Lita said is brilliant?
this rolkur topic on this website “bewilders” me because it has nothing to do with your training methods at all. From my experience watching you, you believe in deep and stretching. let’s not confuse that with rolkur!! I am not a finatic, but am a very good friend of Gerd Heuschman.
and understand his passion against this way of training.
I respect you as always Robert, but you have to defend “classical”
and not the “new classical” as defined by Sjef Jannsen.(I think he coined that term in 2004). I don’t know why you would even go there with this
audience.
true Blue!
Fran
RDover2 — February 22, 2010 @ 6:39 pm
Fran, were you against Uphoff, Werth, and all of Schulten-Baumer’s training as well, because these people and many more including myself were riding our horses very deep at times during our practice. I remember Margit riding Corlandus extremely deep by anyone’s standards in order to bring his back up and hind legs to an optimum engagement. And I don’t remember any call to arms against this practice back then, even when it was done using the leverage of draw-reins, which I have never been a proponent of.
This is why, again and again, I say to you and everyone else - it is not about where the head and neck is placed; rather it is about whether the animal is put there using painful measures which are obvious to the trained eye, just as forcing piafee and passage through constant use of the whip or anything else which produces “undue pain or bewilderment” to a horse should not be allowed.
Talk of new or old classical is not productive. Finding a way to clarify what is or is not legal at shows so that all stewards can efficiently do their jobs is.
RD
fran Goodsell — February 23, 2010 @ 1:49 am
Hi Robert! I just wanted to clarify the difference between “deep” and hyperflextion. I think there is a huge difference, and obviously excessive use of the whip is not OK either. I think the stewards will have their work cut out for them when they confront the situation in the warm up ring. I just hope they are allowed to do their job.
Fran
Sandra McGuire — February 23, 2010 @ 8:58 am
Robert, you hit the nail on the head in your last response. The problem with defining abusive riding is that one body is trying to put into words something that your gut tells you is wrong when you see it. It’s not the placement of the horse’s head, or the use of aids that is the issue. It’s the force that’s used, the intent of the use of the aid (encourage, clarify an aid, or change what may be a dangerous behavior on the horse’s part), and the reward given by the rider when the horse responds to the aid.
Most of us have seen a horse buck or take off with a rider. Aids to correct are applied as quickly as possible, often with more force than in regular riding. But as soon as the horse stops their negative (and very forceful) behavior, the aids are softened and life goes on.
And unfortunately, most of us have probably seen a horse whose walking around at a warm-up or cool down who turns his or her head or body to look at another horse or something interesting. The first response of the rider is to yank the horse’s head and “wack” him or her forward. The horse usually has a “what was that for? I was just seeing if I knew them”.