Of Mosques And Men
So here’s the thing. I, like every American and truly most people around the world, stood horrified by the downing of the Twin Towers and the mass murder of thousands of innocent people, among them Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists and yes, even Muslims. Is there a legitimate fear of Islamic Extremists and for that matter, Extremists of any culture who would use terror as an their M.O.? Absolutely!
But that does not in any way allow us to heap all people of any religious faith into a category and call them terrorists or anti-American. Now let’s talk about this big deal of building a mosque 2 blocks from ground 0. We’re not talking about hallowed ground here, folks. I live in New York and I can tell you that area is repleat with office buildings to sex shops and everything in between. If this were about someone wanting to build a Church or Synagogue there, you wouldn’t have heard a word about it, but all over America, bigoted and racist people are marching in the streets to prevent the building of mosques in their neighbourhoods and this is just plain “un-American!” After all, other than Native Americans who we’ve generally treated like shit, all the rest of us came here from other nations and every cultural and religious background in the world to go after the American Dream. That is what makes me so proud to be an American and to have represented this great country in 6 Olympics. We absolutely need to fight true terrorism everywhere in the world and protect the United States as our President is so effectively doing. But we are the land of FREEDOM and EQUALITY FOR ALL CITIZENS! And that includes our Americans of the Muslim faith, so if they want to build a house of worship in the neighbourhood down in the financial district, I say “GOD BLESS!”
Cheers!
RD
michelle — August 27, 2010 @ 12:40 pm
It is really sad how violent people are getting on this subject. There is soooooo much mis-information out there. Not all muslims are terriorist.
fran Goodsell — August 27, 2010 @ 3:50 pm
I agree totally! BUT! when the political climate is so heightened regarding the location, why not come up with another site.. I think it is to easy to ask Americans especially New Yorkers to accept something like this. It is just another fight that we don’t need, and both sides need to accept the consequences. will there be a winner?
Michelle — August 27, 2010 @ 5:20 pm
Fran but they’ve always been there they just want to re-build. We can’t allow the intolerant people to win. If they want to live in fear that is their choice but it isn’t right.
kim — August 27, 2010 @ 10:26 pm
I find it quite ironic that we should not in any way “heap all people of any religious faith into a category and call them terrorists or anti-American”, and yet you label those who oppose constructing a mosque near the site of such a tragedy as bigoted, racist, and un-American. Furthermore, just to be clear, we are talking about hallowed ground…if a mosque is built on the site. I believe you are confusing the issue. A majority of New York residents and a majority of Americans oppose the location of this particular mosque, not the building of a mosque in general. Considering the circumstances, it is potentially hurtful and inflammatory. If, as Michelle said, people are getting violent, that truly is sad. What violent incidents have taken place with respect to the proposed building of this mosque? This is not a “rebuild”. The property was purchased in 2009. Initially, the plan was to develop it into condominiums. The planned construction will cost $100 million and include a mosque which does not currently exist on the site. Where the funds will be coming from is still suspiciously unclear. Ignorance may be bliss and provide the one the appearance of tolerance, but I would prefer to know definitively that terrorist funds are not being funneled into such a project.
marie meyers — August 27, 2010 @ 11:04 pm
Well the greek orthodox church have tried to build their church again which was destroyed on sept 11 and can’t get approval. Somewhere we need not to be so politically correct. As americans if we say we don’t want something the next statement is we can’t live in fear and the terrorist will win, well we lost alot on Sept 11 and I for one one am sick and tired of being politicaaly correct. I love you thou Robertl
Robert Dover — August 27, 2010 @ 11:05 pm
Sorry, Kim, but as I said, the shops and buildings directly in the area where the mosque is to be built consist of all kinds of “businesses” including sex shops and even Arabic restaurants. What if these shops and restaurants are actually terrorist hideouts?
Also, if we are going along with you, then I say we need to stop these enormous and unbelievably expensive Mormon churches from going up around the country, spreading polygamy. And you know what happens to all those young boys every time another Catholic Church springs up! Not to mention us Jews with our synagogues which we use to build capital to retain control of the media and spread Zionism. Let’s get rid of religious places of worship altogether. I’m pretty sure that worked well for some of those other countries……like Russia….
Cheers!
RD
Michelle — August 28, 2010 @ 5:42 am
Kim there is a mosque 800 feet away from the planned sight. Just because they say the majority is against this does not mean they are right. We have a Supreme Court because quite frankly the majority isn’t always right. For example gay marriage!! Most people in this country are controlled by fear and since the Republicans own confidential party fundraising presentation stated,
The Republican National Committee plans to raise money this election cycle through an aggressive campaign capitalizing on “fear” of President Barack Obama and a promise to “save the country from trending toward socialism.”
Here is the shocking thing NO ONE CARES that a political party has admitted they plan on capitalizing on the FEAR of the American people. What does that tell you about the American people. Sadly most people are sheep they want to be told what and how to think from everything from religion to politics.
I’d say screaming at one another and using hateful ignorant/violent speech while holding equally hateful signs is one step away from physical violence.
I agree with mayor Bloomberg, he has fiercely defended plans for the proposed mosque, saying that the right “to practice your religion was one of the real reasons America was founded.”
Robert Dover — August 28, 2010 @ 6:27 am
Hey, Michelle. Right again, and the mosque which is already right there dates back to early 20th century, well before the Twin Towers were ever a thought. I hope I made my point with my last post that America is truly the greatest country on Earth because of our freedom and diversity.
Cheers!
RD
michelle — August 28, 2010 @ 9:20 am
Robert I sure hope you are right and this great nation and its people can allow reason to pervail. This country was founded for religious freedom please let us not forget this. Do we really need to point out what the Christians have done in this world…Take a look at what the Catholic church has done in the past not to mention recently. Well if the majority of people are lumping all muslims as terrorists then we need to eliminate all catholic schools oh and the vatican since the pope knew children were being molested. Why when it is our religion we don’t see the hypocrisy? I’m guilty of wanting to see the Vatican go bye bye for good.
Meg Hilly — August 28, 2010 @ 9:29 am
right on robert. wish people weren’t so reactionary. wish religion didn’t spark such hatred. we are all made of the same stuff, on a planet hurtling thru space. (some of us keep riding horses in circles on that planet…forward and straight!)
kim — August 28, 2010 @ 10:18 am
Robert,
If the businesses in the area are harboring terrorists, hopefully they will be identified and apprehended. I don’t understand what the point is that you are trying to make by that statement.
Based on your next statement about going along with me, it is obvious you misunderstood me. I do not object to mosques being built, whether they be large and expensive or modest. My opinion is that:
a. the organization has every legal right to pursue building a mosque on the site
b. their choice is insensitive considering the tragedy of 9/11. (I believe this is supported by OPINIONS of the majority of New York residents and Americans.)
c. the Landmarks Commission failed to designate the building as a landmark due to political pressure
d. the funding seems suspicious and should be investigated before any construction takes place
I raised no objections to the construction of Mormon temples, Catholic churches or any other religious building. I stress again that I have no objection to the construction of mosques in this country.
I have known several Mormon families over the period of several years. None that I have met have tried to spread polygamy. All Mormons that I know have strong family and community ties and I am lucky to have known them.
Among my dearest friends and family members are many Catholics. As far as I am aware, none has been molested by a priest. That generalization whether spoken in jest or seriously is offensive. I’ll not comment on the Jewish state as that is apparently your own heritage.
One other point that I will make is that the United States is not under external threat from terrorism from fanatics belonging to the religions you identified (Mormonism, Catholicism, or Judaism).
As for Russia, as a gay man, I doubt that you would find it a warm and friendly place.
michelle — August 28, 2010 @ 10:30 am
OMG Kim you say if we bring up what the Catholic church has done in the past and in recent times with molesting children is offensive…I am offened by you!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE CORRECT SOME PRIESTS DID IT NOT ALL BUT THE POPE KNEW IT!! I say get rid of any catholic church near a school or part of a school..Based on your reasoning with the mosque you should agree with me..
kim — August 28, 2010 @ 11:15 am
Michelle,
Since you addressed me, I will respond. The mosque that is located 800 feet from the proposed site is irrelevant. There is no movement to have it torn down due to its proximity to Ground Zero.
The role of the Supreme Court is to uphold the Constitution. It is not a legislative body. The will of the majority or minority is irrelevant. Our founders gave us a republic precisely to prevent “majority rule”. (Funnily, the Massachusetts–a typically liberal state– House has passed a bill to support the election of the president by popular vote)
I disagree that most people in this country are controlled by fear. I would be happy to read any well documented information you have on the subject. There is too much evidence to deny that both political parties use unsavory tactics. I am equally as sure that individuals exist in both parties that are moral, honorable, and self-sacrificing.
I am distressed by this country’s trend toward socialism. Economic freedom is closely tied to political freedom and civil liberties. In general, those countries that are most economically free are also the countries that enjoy the most political freedom, highest per capita income. It promotes social progress and environmental protection.
Most of the people I know are not sheep. I can also think of no one in my circle of friends with whom I agree totally. One generalization I will make is that those who disagree with me on a great number of issues seem to have more uniformity in their beliefs than those people who agree with me on most issues.
Thank you for clarifying that the demonstrations against the mosque were not physically violent. The distinction is important. It’s sad that each side tries to portray the other in such a negative manner and misrepresent the opposing position. I can understand that their are those who have no strong objections to the construction of a mosque on the site. I am of the opinion that it is an insensitive and inflammatory decision. If the project’s organizers are truly striving to promote peace, tolerance, and understanding, they should elect to build something other than a mosque which has already proven to be divisive and hurtful to those who lost family members in the attack. Why not build a multi-faith religious building or even a Christian church?
kim — August 28, 2010 @ 11:28 am
Michelle,
You really twisted what I wrote. I DID NOT say that bringing it up was offensive. It is repugnant. My point is that characterizing every priest as a pedophile is offensive.
You want to get rid of every Catholic church near a school, but yet you defend the building of an Islamic mosque. Having lived for years in an Islamic country, I can say that I would feel safer for myself and my children living in a Catholic country any day. Now, do not misconstrue that statement to mean that I am in any way anti-Islam. I am very proud of my country and the religious freedom that it affords our citizens. I am glad to count Muslims as my friends. Facts are facts as un-politically correct as they might be.
michelle — August 28, 2010 @ 11:31 am
Well Kim we’ve already gone over the Christian thing…More people have been killed in the name of Christ then Mohammed. Many of the families of 9/11 do not have an issue with the Mosque. Thank God the Supreme court attempts to uphold the constitution because often times it goes against the majority. I for one are hoping the Court makes it legal for Robert to get married in any state he wants…This will go against the majority who are so wrapped up in fear. Exactly how is this country going towards socialism??? I’ve said this before capitalism only works with a high degree of morality and ethics and clearly we do not have this in this country. The gulf and our economy is just couple of examples. I will have to disagree with you the vast majority of people in the world operate from fear.. This is how most religions have it set up do this and this and if you do that you are going to hell(insert rolling of the eyes).
Robert Dover — August 28, 2010 @ 11:34 am
Kim, if Christians had legal ownership of the property, then by all means they could build a church. As it is, people of the Muslim faith have the property and therefore would like to build a mosque, blocks away from Ground Zero. And for everyone’s information, there have been demonstrations now in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Nebraska, and even Los Angeles against people of Muslim faith hoping to build mosques in those towns. I’d that does not sound like a country driven by fear, I don’t know what does. We really must distinguish between Muslims and Islamic extremists or any other extremists for that matter. Otherwise, we are not exhibiting the best and highest form of who we are as Americans in our great melting pot that is our beloved country.
Cheers!
RD
michelle — August 28, 2010 @ 11:34 am
Where did I say every priest is a child molester? Umm I was pointing out the hypocrisy of christians.
michelle — August 28, 2010 @ 12:16 pm
Kim my point was made today.. Tens of thousands showed up for Glenn Beck’s march..Quite frankly I’m not sure he’s mentally stable and look at the people that follow him and believe every word that lune says. FEAR FEAR FEAR
Kim — August 28, 2010 @ 12:34 pm
Last post. Obviously Michelle is having difficulty understanding my position.
Robert, although I prefer not to see a new mosque constructed at the proposed site in NYC, I respect that you have a well-reasoned opinion to the opposite. I also defend the legal right of the organizers to do so. I hope that they will reconsider in deference to the many families of 9/11 who do have an issue with the mosque.
As for the demonstrations in the other communities that you mentioned, I do not have an opinion. I am not aware of the facts surrounding those proposals.
Michelle,
You made a number of assertions not at all relevant to the topic in Robert’s post. If you prefer Christianity to Islam, that is certainly your choice. I think the best platform to compare/contrast the religions would by comparing Jesus Christ to Muhammed and the Bible to the Koran. I am not interested in discussing this and I suspect you do not have a genuine interest.
The index of economic freedom ranks the U.S. as the 8th most economically free country in the world. We have fallen in 7 of 10 of the indices over the past year. We are now ranked as “mostly free” instead of “free”. Please be clear, I did not say we are a socialist, but we are trending that way and the government spending is undeniably out of control.
As a mom, I find it overwhelming that God would give his child for my life…and those I love if they accept the gift. I don’t find that rule by fear, but liberating, comforting, and full of hope.
Also, I never claimed you said that every priest is a child molester. Robert made a comment (in a much earlier post) which sounded like it might have been sarcasm (sometimes difficult to determine tone in electronic exchanges).
michelle — August 28, 2010 @ 12:43 pm
Well Kim we don’t agree on many levels, the mosque and religion. I don’t believe Jesus is the one and only child of God(I happen to believe is the universe not a white haired man) we are as much God’s children and Jesus…
Kim — August 31, 2010 @ 6:30 am
Oops, Michelle. Not sure what “point” of yours was made today but your snide comment about Glenn Beck’s Restoring Honor Rally may have been a bit premature. (BTW it was HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who attended.) And there you go again, generalizing about a group of people, most of whom I suspect you do not know–isn’t that pretty much the definition of prejudice?
Michelle — August 31, 2010 @ 9:03 am
Oh Kim I know that group all to well as I used to be one of them until I woke up and caught so many of them lying. Oh by the way the numbers have not been verified but if it’s in the hundreds of thousands then we have lots of uninformed people in this country. Oh by the way I don’t think the Dems are right about everything but once you wake up and catch Rush, Hannity etc etc in lies you realize the Republican party at this moment is about Fear. Heck there own manifesto said so…Prey on the fear of the American people. Wish the reasonable people of that party would take it back from the crazies.
Kim — August 31, 2010 @ 12:55 pm
Wow, Michelle, this seems to be a word association game…you don’t need much more than a common word to springboard from one attack to the next. I can vouch for the honesty, integrity and generosity of a number of people who attended the rally, which seemed peaceful enough. I even just did a search for media coverage exposing all the “FEAR FEAR FEAR” instilled in the misinformed, violent sheep who attended. I can’t find any. Please feel free to post a link. You might want to make sure that the link does not include a picture of the event. Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words or HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of “sheep” as the case may be.
Rush, Hannity and the Republican Party were not part of the event, which was to “pay tribute to America’s military personnel and others who embody our nation’s founding principles of integrity, truth, and honor.” (How horrible does that sound!!!) Good for Beck since the present Commander in Chief couldn’t spare the time to honor the troops lest he miss a vacation day in Chicago.
Maybe when you wake up, you’ll realize that I never claimed to be a Republican nor have I vouched for the “party manifesto” or the collective group. But please, feel free to continue arguing against whatever straw man makes you happy. I happen to think the Rally was great and hopefully it sends a strong message to all the corrupt politicians in office (of which there are also plenty of Democrats).
Michelle — August 31, 2010 @ 1:23 pm
Kim clearly we don’t agree on politics or religion lets just leave it at that.